ATAA and Turkish American Voices Publicized in LA Times
The Los Angeles Times, a newspaper that is officially on the record
using the term "genocide" when referring to the events that took
place around 1915, published a partial transcript of the meeting
between ATAA, ATA-SC President Ahmet Atahan and Tim Cavanaugh, Web
Editor of the LA Times Opinion Page. ATAA would like to share the
text of the transcript below with its members and friends.
------------
From the Los Angeles Times
PRIMARY SOURCE
Genocide, diplomacy and terrorism
A partial transcript the Assembly of Turkish American Associations'
meeting with The Times editorial board.
April 2, 2008
Leaders of an umbrella group for Turkish-American groups stopped by
The Times recently to discuss the debate over the Armenian genocide,
Turkey's membership in the European Union and quashing Kurdish
separatism in northern Iraq. Below are highlights from that meeting.
Armenian genocide
Tim Cavanaugh: The L.A. Times is on record as supporting the term
genocide to describe whatever it is that happened in the early part
of the 20th century. We'd be interested in hearing your views on that.
Nurten Ural, president, Assembly of Turkish American Associations:
Sure. Well, as far as the events of 1915, of course we do not like to
call it a genocide because it was not a genocide. We do agree that
many Armenians died at that time; we feel very bad about that, but
many if not more Turks and Muslims died at the time. It was a time of
war, and in war, people die. But we really think Turkey's position on
this is - Turkey has opened its archives, and they say, let's get all
the historians, open up all the archives, let them dive into the
archives, research what really happened, and everybody will accept
whatever happened.
What we don't like is having the politicians make history or set
history when they're not that knowledgeable about history. If the
historian part doesn't work, let's take it to court - have the
international court get historians or whatever to see what happened
in those days. As Turkish Americans, we're very strong on this, that,
you know, as far as the fact, let's find out what the real facts are
instead of what we want them to be or what others want them to be...
Cavanaugh: What kind of discussions do you have with Armenian groups,
Armenian-American groups in particular?
Ural: Well, we try to have discussions.
debates; in fact, some of my best friends are Armenians. Secretly,
they come to us; openly, publicly, they refuse to come to us... To
us, we have the same culture as the Armenians: We have the same
music, we have the same foods - we should get along... We need to get
this out into the open, we need to get past it, we need to go on.
The thing that personally..
teaching children hatred. In this time in the world, we don't need
that. We need to teach them peace and to get along with each other.
Cavanaugh: They can come in and make their own case... but just as a
question: What you hear from Armenian groups is, you know, when you
say debate, the response to that is, "Well, we don't ask Jewish
groups to come in and debate German groups about whether the
Holocaust happened. And why should we be subject to that... sort of
self justification?
Ural: It has been proven that the Holocaust happened; it has not been
proven that the genocide has happened ...
Ahmet Atahan, president, Association of Turkish Americans of Southern
California: If you're talking in the streets [to] an Anatolian-born
Armenian or American-born Armenian, their views reflect, I think, a
little bit different than the political side of the whole issue. So
when you say Armenians, yes, we do talk with Armenians. Yes, we do
work with them, we live with them, we entertain ourselves with them.
But when it comes to the political angle, some sectors [are] driving
the whole issue. It's different than the common Armenian that's
really thinking in a different wavelength..
Cavanaugh: We had the Armenian prime minister in a few months back,
and he suggested... we're talking about Armenian Americans, right?
Because... the prime minister's discussed the idea that this is
something that gets people exercised more in the diaspora than it
does in Armenia itself...
Allison Block, advocacy director, ATAA: There's no question about
that. In fact, there are more [Armenians] living outside of Armenia
than in Armenia proper. In fact, Armenia proper is suffering
incredibly because of this. As you are aware, the border between
Turkey and Armenia is closed right now. It was closed for obviously a
different issue, but such political tension has caused Turkey to keep
the border shut... Should this issue be brought to Congress and
decided upon in Congress, that indeed the United States recognizes
this is genocide, I think you'll find that the border will stay shut
and Armenia itself as a country will suffer even more. Turkish
businesspeople and Armenian businesspeople are already trying to find
ways to cooperate because... there is no question that this is a
diaspora issue...
Cavanaugh: How does this impact you guys as Turkish Americans? These
are international issues that are for other people to settle, so
where do you come into this?
Ural: Personally, my niece came from school crying - well, my brother
had to go get her from school - when an eight-year-old girl tells my
niece, "Your grandfather killed by grandfather,
idea what they're talking about... That is what we don't like to see,
when our children [are] attacked in school for no reason whatsoever,
for a reason that they're not even aware of... That should not be
encourage by parents; that should not be taught by parents ...
Cavanaugh: Is this formed to some degree by the fact that the United
States at the time was among the few patrons the Armenians had?... Is
that something that sort of structurally works against you guys, that
there is this long history of sympathy?
Block: I wouldn't necessarily say that's a factor.
Atahan: There's a couple details there... Don't label the whole thing
1915 events, because when you look at history, you have to look at...
a much wider time period to see the real reasons and kind of why
things happened... because there are events after 1915 that Armenians
don't talk about that [are] actually against them...You cannot just
look at a narrow timeframe. When you look at... the end of the 18th
century, you'll also see that there are a lot of religious missions
and activities. So when you look at the American point of view, there
[are] some religious-influence
Ural: Also, events such as the Armenians taking and being allies with
the Russians fighting against the Turks. Like I said, it's a time of
war; that's why many of them died, just as well as Turks did. There's
a lot of complications.
Turks killed Armenians and it's a genocide.
Atahan: Forget old times, come to today. When you look at Iraq today,
there are a number of deaths, a number of people dislocated and
everything. When you look at it, so does that mean, a few years down
the road people can easily say, "Americans caused the big loss in
Iraq, so that was a genocide"? Or, you look at it in a more logical
way... and you look at the reasons and say... "This is a war time,
this is what happened..." But if you put the emotions on the table,
and don't look at the realistic end of it, of course the picture's
going to be totally different...
Cavanaugh: Why would [Armenian Americans] push the issue?
Ural: Land. Money.
Atahan: Not just land... but also, if you're able to get an 18-year-
old kid today have certain feelings because he's an Armenian. So you
lose that hatred as a tool to keep an identity, you use it for other
purposes, and you need to keep on going for financial gain [and] for
other purposes. But is that the reality? Who knows - that's a
different issue. With Turks, it was overcome. We had losses; bury it,
get over it...I had my relatives die. My grandparents and family, the
whole village vanished. But I don't feel hatred for anybody because
of it. It was a war time, it happened, period. My life is
different...
Turkey and the European Union
Cavanaugh: Turkey is perpetually trying to get full EU membership..
What do you do on that issue?
Ural: In my personal opinion, I think Europe needs Turkey more than
Turkey needs Europe. To me, it doesn't matter if Turkey is a part of
Europe; I think it would be better off if it wasn't...
Atahan: The identity situation comes in there... We want to stay as
Turks. Yes, economically, we may do certain things - joint venture-
type things - but identity should be kept in a way. Even today, I can
see that between Germany and France, I mean, you cannot just label
them one country like [the] U.S. is, between Texas and, you know, New
York. A New Yorker is a New Yorker, a Texan is a Texan ...
Cavanaugh: What's the hold up? Why does Europe still argue over this?
And who would like to see Turkish accession, and who wouldn't?
Block: There are several different factors, in my opinion, that come
into play. First of all, you have Nicolas Sarkozy, who is very much
opposed to Turkish EU accession, primarily because in his own
country, he's seen as a nationalist and wants to preserve the purity
of the European Union as this Christian club, et cetera. Before
Angela Merkel was elected, she was very much opposed to full
membership for Turkey. But since she's been in office, since her
visit to Turkey, in fact, she's come around quite a bit. The U.K. has
obviously been quite supportive of Turkey's accession...
Many of the other acceding countries into the European Union haven't
been held under such scrutiny as Turkey has. For example, Turkey was
one of the first countries that they were actually talking about
having a full referendum in every state on Turkey accession, which
would be the first time any acceding country has been held to that
standard. So of course Turkey's going to be upset and say, "Hey,
you're holding us to a completely different standard ..."
The bar keeps shifting for Turkey, whereas for Croatia, for example,
they're much more, I guess, lenient in some of those terms... When
Ireland came in as one of the members, their economy was horrible...
and still they were allowed in. Their economy grew and flourished,
and now they're a very functional, contributing part of the European
Union. Another issue, for example, Poland: Many in the union were
afraid of the Polish Plumber, all of these manual laborers coming
from Poland into the European Union and taking all of the other
Europeans' jobs. That was, in fact, not the case. Many Europeans, in
fact, went to Poland to find work...
They fear that all of the uneducated, unemployed laborers from Turkey
will come rushing into the European Union. In fact, I don't think
that's the case. Turkey has an incredibly young, educated population
that would benefit Europe...
Kurdish separatism and terrorism
Block: I'm sure you're aware of Turkish cooperation in Afghanistan,
with [the International Security Assistance Force]. I think it's
amazing that Turkey is the only country that has controlled the ISAF
three times as a member of NATO and is the only Muslim country that
has controlled ISAF in Afghanistan. And, you know, Turkey is a
partner in fighting terrorism in those terms, and I guess that's what
Turkey expects from the United States in turn.
And we've seen that more recently with the cooperation, the military
intelligence sharing against the PKK in northern Iraq. Another point
I'd to make about northern Iraq is, all of the construction and
development that's going on in northern Iraq is primarily Turkish
companies - I'd say, 90% of the construction that goes on in northern
Iraq.
Cavanaugh: When we're talking northern Iraq, are we talking about
Kurdistan?
Ural: There is no Kurdistan.
Block: Northern Iraq - the northern part of Iraq, which, yes, there
is a Kurdish population there, but primarily the companies that are
doing all of the infrastructure development there are Turkish
companies...
For a while, I guess maybe it was almost a year ago now... when the
area was starting to get less controlled because of the PKK violence,
there were numerous Turkish truck drivers that were killed in
northern Iraq because of PKK violence. This is before... the recent
incursions of the PKK coming into Turkey. There was violence already
in northern Iraq against Turkish truck drivers that were helping
them, you know, rebuild that part of the country...
Cavanaugh: If there were a Kurdish national home developed [in Iraq],
would you guys take a position against that?
Block: Absolutely.
Ural: Absolutely.
Block: Because of the PKK issue precisely... Turkey has suffered
under PKK terrorism for about 20 years now, and more than 30 to
35,000 people have been victims of PKK terrorism within Turkey
alone... Primarily 20 years ago it was... the PKK... carrying out
attacks in Turkey mostly to fight for rights that they had been
denied, and Turkey has come to terms with that. Many of the freedoms
that were denied to Kurds in the past have been granted - the ability
to speak their language, the ability to educate in Kurdish, the
ability to broadcast in Kurdish - a lot of those freedoms have been
granted.
So now primarily the Kurdish terrorist organizations are working in
northern Iraq and operating there because the United States kind of
protects them there. So they come into Turkey and carry out their
attacks... primarily now to establish their own territory. So what
that means that they're fighting for is their own Kurdish state,
which would carve out a piece of Turkey, Iraq and Syria, and parts of
Iran.
Now you'll see that the Kurdish terrorist organizations in northern
Iraq are starting to cooperate more with other Kurdish terrorist
organizations, for example, in Iran, because of this desire to carve
a Kurdish nation out of those areas.
Ural: So it would be bad, not only for Turkey, but I think for the
United States if they did create a Kurdistan.
Link of the article:www.
Sema Karaoglu, Founder Meltem Birkegren, Director
www.DofA.org
www.wearetheturks.org
Daughters of Atatürk is proud to promote Turkish Heritage across the globe. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk shaped the legacy we proudly inherited.
His integrity and dynamism and vision constantly inspires us. We are thankful to him for walking the untrodden path, achieving the unimaginable dream, living the eternal vision. We are the Turks, we are the future of Turkey.
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